The distance from Westwood to the Palisade Mall which is open on Sunday is 5.41 Miles but the distance to the Paramus Garden State Plaza is 9 miles. Is this woman a plant by the corporate owners of the malls like the people behind the last two votes?
Why isn't she siding with her neighbors in Paramus who contend with the traffic from the malls AND the county facilities she benefits from located in Paramus: college, hospital, morgue, senior office, mosquito control, agriculture agents, technical schools, EMT training facilities. Where was she when Pascack Valley hospital closed and 1/6 of the regions economy went in the tank....don't remember he fight ting for anything then!

Doug, I am with you 100%; there are many alternatives for those who feel that they MUST shop on Sunday.

News Man...please understand...Bergen County WANTS the Blue Laws and repeatedly votes to keep them. If it ain't broke...Don't Fix It!!!

The natives of Paramus, and many newcomers agree that allowing the blue laws to be lifted would be a tragedy, and if you lived here you would understand why. Myself and many others agree that there are 6 days to shop here in Paramus and if it is a dire emergency you have Willow Brook Mall 20 minutes away. If it is about revenue, it all boils down to old sales tactics. You have choices and you make them based on whats available. So if the stores are open on Sunday, sure you will go, but if they are not you would have went on one of the other perfectly fine days.

Na..It looks like the Blue laws are here to stay. Every vote EVER! always has knocked it down... Even these little votes on The Paramus Patch, and Bergennow.com are 2-1 and 3-1 against changing it. Pepole will come out in droves if it went to a vote, to keep the laws..No doubt!!

If you want the malls open on sunday, perhaps, you should move next door to them and see how much you enjoy the traffic

you still can shop on sundays...just go to a different mall or another county

I work for a grocery retail store which is open 7 days a week and it sucks. If the people that come into our store during the week can do it so can you. Get off you butt and shop during the week like the rest of us do.

Danielle,
Many working and single moms and dads find alternatives and enjoy family time without mall stress on Sundays. If you do choose to shop, there are alternatives not too far away—you could make it a family outing. Really.

Danielle...We ARE with the Times...Bergen County WANTS its Blue Laws, then, now, and in the future! If you think about it, we're REALLY being quite progressive! Really!

Thank you, CJ, with you completely!

As do many neighbors.

Amen!

Sally, Cathy, and Rosann...and please know that the Blue Laws are NOT just for Paramus. Bergen County has voted to keep the Blue Laws alive more than once. I got these facts from others here, but out of the 185,000 votes to keep the BLue Laws in 1993, 27,000 were from Paramus...so there are plenty of Bergen County residents who DON'T live in Paramus who want these important laws kept intact!

Paramus is already competitive with only 6 days. They don't need another day. We have flagship stores from many main retailers. It is already the #1 retail zip code in the country. The rate for unoccupied retail space hardly changed on route 4 during the recession of 2008 and 2009. Rte 17 fluctuated slightly. The mini mall my store is in is at 90%+ occupancy. How much more competitive can a town get!! What I want to know is if you are going to donate money to the ambulance corps so they can perform their duties for 7 days? I say let them give aid to homeowners (taxpayers) ONLY and let you shoppers fend for yourself. My taxes go up because you want to shop?>?????!!!! Not if I can help It!

I'm Rosemary e-mail at rozette@yahoo.com

maryl, you are completely right. Opening a 7th day would increase costs; revenue would raise little, and some would be cannibalizing profits from other areas (Passaic County, New York State). Owners of small stores who cannot afford to hire employees would be at a disadvantage if they chose not to open; opening could mean 7-day workweeks. Not civilized, IMHO.

Competitive? Clearly every God forsaken person comes from all over the planet to shop here in Paramus. be it no tax on clothes or accessability. We really are it Pete...Its easy for people who do not live here to think that getting rid of the blue laws is a good idea, but there are many more reasons why it is not. As for the comment on whining? Whining is when people typically of the want instant gratification without thinking of the consequences. Lets not be lazy folks, Im a single mother and am appreciative that I have six other days to shop, and other shops near by if necessary. We would be spending more money on traffic cops etc to open the malls, and quite frankly I love enjoying my Sundays being able to actually navigate around my beautiful town.......

Dawn Do you know GSP was approved to let them add 20 stores. Where are the residents and Mayor to avoid GSP TO DO so. Yes I live in Rockland and work at Palisades Mall. I get many shoppers from Bergen County on Sunday I sell shoes so they buy them and go back to Paramus on Monday to get their tax back so i lose the sale and Paramus gains is that fair to me wasting my time and effort.I was at GSP AND BTC the traffic was worse in the malls than on 4 and 17.Paramus makes me laugh how much GSP HAS EXPANDED ,NO PREVENTING THAT NO FIGHT AFTER IKEA BED BATH AND CHRISRMAS TREE WAS ADDED AFTER . ALEXANDERS CLOSED. yOU ALL LET THEM DO IT SO DONT BITCH ABOUT TRAFFIC.

Rex Merrins...Many people moved to Paramus 40-60 years ago when it was still mostly farms...they have not ALL asked for malls and such. Using partial facts and ranting does not make you correct...it just makes you loud. It is easy to live in Rockland and tell Paramus what to do...however, I don't believe your address makes you a viable part of this discussion. Paramus wants the Blue Laws and will ALWAYS vote to keep them.

Keep the blue laws!
—Woodcliff Lake

rex,
If Bergen stores were open on Sunday you would not have that business at all, it would go directly to Paramus or other Bergen stores, and I am sure that not everyone who shops with you then goes to N.J. on Monday to get tax credit. If your store has branches in both states, that is something that it should address in its return policy. I am appalled at the GSP expansion, hardly ever go there, or really to almost any mall, do go to the Bergen Mall for Whole Foods and a few others, but still rare.

Great Point, Sally! I wish I had thought of that!

Agreed. Paramus Dawn.

yup

quite true, and with 1/7 less cost.

Amen Sonnie!

How are Blue Laws unconstitutional?

The Blue Laws are NOT unconstitutional...they have been voted in and staying, legally, for many years...get your facts straight.

I'm Rosemary e-mail at rozette@yahoo.com

They will in Paramus. We Paramus residents will see to that. You can change the Bergen County laws but Paramus will still have their BLUE LAWS. As for financial losses for businesses, opening on Sunday will not make up for the losses in revenue due to the weather. The weather is a natural phenomena which occurs all the time and if businesses can't save some of their money for a "RAINY DAY" then they shouldn't be in business. It means they're hanging on by their teeth and need to reassess their business plans. If you don't live in Paramus you don't have diddly to say about what we do in Paramus.

Enforcement may be an issue; I know that grocery stores do not sell clothes on Sundays. Whether the golf pro shop does, I do not know personally; I would have no problem with requiring the gift shop to be closed or items restricted on Sunday, just fair to other merchants.

The rationale given for the opening on Sundays for two weeks (too many, in my book) was NOT lost business, it was to help those who were devastated. In a telephone conversation, the county administrator even mentioned those who had lost “both” cars and needed to rely on friends for transportation. So, if the real reason was lost business, government was lying to us; if the real reason was compassion for those devastated by the storm, it was a one-time thing. Back to normal, now, with businesses closed.

I don't know why this hasnt been said earlier, but it sounds like the best solution!

Totally aggree with you Pete. Let the towns decide what they want to do.

not true, it was voted on about 6-8 years ago, appartently people voted to keep the Blue Laws!

Pete...I actually think this is a VERY acceptable compromise! But you need to know that the COUNTY...not just Paramus has voted to keep the Blue Laws more than once. Maybe someone will hear your words and take up the cause...I think it's very reasonable...as long as Paramus gets to keep its Sunday sanity, other towns SHOULD have the right to do what they want.

I'm Rosemary e-mail at rozette@yahoo.com

Best idea I have heard. Paramus is not Bergen County and as such should not force the entire county to abide by laws that only benefit Paramus.

SK...I will say this one more time and hopefully someone will listen...PARAMUS does not, has not, nor will we ever, set the rules for ALL of Bergen County...it was not PARAMUS that voted to keep the Blue Laws time and time again...it was the ENTIRE county of BERGEN that continues to hold onto this valued tradition. I am sure if the other towns did not get any benefit from the Blue Laws they wouldn't keep voting them in to stay!

The last vote was something like 80% against Blue Laws changing in 1993 I believe, and the vote before that was approx. 59% so as you can see, every time the vote is taken it gets worse for you "outlanders". Be careful what you wish for, YOU MAY GET IT!!!

Thats not a horrible idea Pete. I think that if you live in Westwood than fight for the rights locally. This way everyone is happy. The problem may be though that the people who are the business owners may have an issue. Hopefully not.

I'm Rosemary e-mail at rozette@yahoo.com

Check out on Facebook, Modernize Bergen County

Rosemary...are you the Rosemary who started this whole discussion?! If so.Thank You. You have prompted a showing where the VAST majority of us posting are in favor of KEEPING the Blue Laws, thereby proving you wrong and us right. I appreciate how YOU got Bergen County together to defend the Blue Laws! Couldn't have done it better myself!

Well said, I think that Pete and Rex need to fight for Blue Laws in there counties if this is such an issue for them. If people are going to there county from Bergen county that is a rare thing. I don't know anyone who would not just choose to go to Willowbrook mall in NJ. Unless they are out in Mahwah or further. So Rex why don't you fight for these laws in your county, then you can have a day to be at peace too!

@ Don...you are trying to say...the traffic on Saturday on Paramus Rd is the same as the traffic during the week between 3 and 6 pm while BCC is in session??? well either you are not driving on Paramus Rd or you are just saying anything to get your point across...I drive on Paramus Rd everyday and even after the widening it still doesnt make a difference...

I have family that works retail and Sundays is the ONLY day we can plan to get together. There is a lot you can do to prevent additional stores from opening. Go to the planning board meetings, town meetings, I have seen one voice make a difference.

Well Said Don!

I am no baseball fan but why would you move near a baseball field to begin with if you don't like it thats my opinion on that

What a ridiculous analogy. There is no comparison to having to combat traffic and chaos, and honestly you should have thought of that before you moved there. God forbid the kids have a little something in this town without it making someones pocket book fatter....Priorities are so entirely distorted sometimes people.

Well said!

Here Here PHS84!!!

well said! You have 6 days to shop in Paramus get it done. I work Monday -Saturday (not in retail) as a small business owner in town and still manage to not to shop on Sundays. I feel that I live in a town that I can buy anything I could possibly need and I know that I have to do it so DEAL! Having that one day that I can go out if I want to and not hassle with traffic is WONDERFUL. So go to Willowbrook,Palisades wherever but leave us alone. We won't mind.

Yes! And as for creating revenue, business's and jobs, why not open a business in your own town. As I said before, God forbid there wasn't something going on in this town where it wasn't making someones pocket fatter. Honestly the priorities are horrendous for some people. Build more parks, or make the ones we have better. Now there is something worth petitioning for.

So everyone else should suffer because of your failure to plan?

I'm Rosemary e-mail at rozette@yahoo.com

poor, spoiled Matt! Are you employed? Do you get to decide not to work one day, or to do only the tasks you enjoy? Unless you are a child, your post indicates immaturity to me.

Petition for whatever you want Matt. I say laziness is really a more valid issue!

Actually, the entire county decided NOT to opt out of the state blue laws, as other counties did. There are differences in specifics from town to town.

agreed

Agree, agree, agree!

Way to Go Ro!!!! I wish non--residents would mind their own business!

Thank you, Ro!
BTW, Westwood has blue laws, too.

Absolutely true; Passaic County, too.

Mitchell, Pete above suggested a very good compromise...to let the individual towns decide for themselves. I also feel your compromise would work..but the former seems fair too. As far as economic growth is concerned, Obviously, considering the HUGE amount of money that is being made in Paramus 6 days a week, it is obvious that we are NOT in dire straites when it comes to economic growth. Finally, as far as the majority of Bergen County residents agreeing with you, I am wondering how many of them have discussed their opinion with you? I go by the voting in all past elections where the majority of the county has upheld the Blue Laws time and time again!!! I think history speaks for itself.

I do not believe that it is the majority that want the laws changed; where is your documentation for such an allegation?

In my totally un-biased opinion..I think you make an extremely great point!

I am with you, Kim!

Bravo!

Pete...Makes sense to me. Especially since I know that my fellow Paramusians will NEVER vote to lose our Sunday Sanity!

I am not convinced retailers actually lose all that much money by being closed. People have budgets and by not spending money one day a week simply means they spend it sometime during the other six days. If I need a shovel and I don't buy one on Sunday, because the store is closed, I'll just buy in on Monday (or I'll prepare for the eventuality and buy it on Saturday). The hardware store hasn't lost any revenue by being closed as I still buy the shovel.

I don't argue the point that blue laws once had religious origins, but their purpose now transcends such theological concerns. Frankly, I don't care if a day of rest occurs on Wednesday or Sunday, but I think it's important for a community to have such a day of rest and the residents of Paramus have also decided this is a priority over the petty values of consumerism. Sunday, for cultural and traditional reasons, has been the appointed day and the practicalities afforded to a community by the cessation of commerce prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is no longer religious so the argument of separation of church and state fails. The commerce clause has nothing guaranteeing that businesses have a right to be open 7 days a week; regulation of days is merely an extension by degree of regulation of hours.

Losing a day of rest gains nothing, but loses a lot. To open on Sunday results in a tragedy of the commons. Everyone will end up competing harder, but gain nothing. I only wish other communities shared Paramus' wisdom.

Oh, and if you wanted proof that blue laws are constitutional, see McGowan v. Maryland: http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/366/420/case.html

Dennis McNerney pointed out when testifying at a state budget hearing (2011?) that he was told that the large retailers preferred to stay closed on Sundays, in 6 days made as much as or more than other stores in 6 days, with 1/7 lower cost.

I too am thankful of constitutional protection against populist overreach. There is no doubt in my mind that the check provided by the courts guards against the tyranny of the majority. However, this is not a case of that.

"There is no dispute that the original laws which dealt with Sunday labor were motivated by religious forces. But what we must decide is whether present Sunday legislation, having undergone extensive changes from the earliest forms, still retains its religious character....
In light of the evolution of our Sunday Closing Laws through the centuries, and of their more or less recent emphasis upon secular considerations, it is not difficult to discern that, as presently written and administered, most of them, at least, are of a secular, rather than of a religious, character, and that presently they bear no relationship to establishment of religion as those words are used in the Constitution of the United States."

This isn't my opinion; it's Chief Justice Earl Warren's.

Well, it's the opinion of a Chief Justice writing for the majority which carries the weight of law. Due to the principle of stare decisis, I'm pretty sure the current courts would respect this decision. To quote a little more:

"Throughout this century and longer, both the federal and state governments have oriented their activities very largely toward improvement of the health, safety, recreation and general wellbeing of our citizens. Numerous laws affecting public health, safety factors in industry, laws affecting hours and conditions of labor of women and children, weekend diversion at parks and beaches, and cultural activities of various kinds, now point the way toward the good life for all. Sunday Closing Laws, like those before us, have become part and parcel of this great governmental concern wholly apart from their original purposes or connotations. The present purpose and effect of most of them is to provide a uniform day of rest for all citizens; the fact that this day is Sunday, a day of particular significance for the dominant Christian sects, does not bar the State from achieving its secular goals. To say that the States cannot prescribe Sunday as a day of rest for these purposes solely because centuries ago such laws had their genesis in religion would give a constitutional interpretation of hostility to the public welfare, rather than one of mere separation of church and State."

I'd say more, but the Patch has a ridiculously low limit of characters I'm a

Frank, I may live in Rockland , dont tell me not one resident of Paramus does not shop in Palisades or Kohls in Nanuet on Sundays, I worked IN palisades Lord and Taylor I would get customers buying shoes on sunday and when they realize they have to pay tax they go to GSP on Monday and get their tax back so paramus gains and I lose the whole sale and i waste my time and effort. Is it fair for the workers at willowbrook and palisades to work twice as hard on sundays and during holiday time while the paramus workers are home with their feet up. You all allowed Paramus to build all these malls and shop centers and GSP TO KEEP EXPANDING AND THEY ARE DOING IT AGAIN adding 20 more stores. You all let it keep on and you complain about traffic you have to realize 4 and 17 are main arteries to ny and other parts of nj.not just the malls.

Rex...I hear you, and I never said that NO Paramus citizen doesn't shop your store...but I don't, and I have never done this to you..so why should my family and neighbors be punished for their actions ?
We didn't ALLOW GSP or anyone to build up so much...we aren't given a vote on new businesses in general. The only vote I've been aware of in this type of situation is when Trump wanted to build a hotel on Alexander's lot...and I'm sorry he lost because the structures built in that area are hideous and ruin the area.

I never said the issue is ONLY traffic...People "hear" what they want to hear. Yes, traffic is probably the worst of it..but it's lifestyle...and it's not what my parents planned when they moved to Paramus, and I don't believe outsiders should decide what OUR environment should be...

I have to be honest with you...the image you portray about Sundays, complaining about Paramus workers negates any sense you make in the rest of your argument. If you cannot refrain from pettiness, please argue in another forum...i's a sophmoric argument at best.

Why don't you ask Lord and Taylor to create a policy of only returning goods in the same district? Why attack us because THEIR customer service policy allows for what you describe to happen?!?! (And PLEASE understand that I am not happy that people do that to you...I agree that it is wrong and I'm sorry for the trouble it causes for you...but it is not my fault, nor is it Paramus' responsibility...sorry...)

opinion, IT might be the shops of GSP but i am sure MACYS NORDSTROM JCPENNEY NIEMANS AND LORD and TAYLOR DONT LIKE IT ESPECIALLY THAT LORD AND TAYLOR, AND MACYS operates two stores in Paramus.and many other stores that operate more than one location in Bergen Target etc.I was at GSP on one of the Sundays they repealed the laws in November the salespeople werent mad at either mall. This IS life we all deal with traffic its everywhere I have no sympathy for the residents of Paramus you all allowed all these malls over these decades and it dosent make you all any different from any other town in nj or any other states that have malls and shop centers.People who bought homes in Paramus in the late 70s on knew that Paramus is the mall capital.and should have thought twice instead of always letting GSP KEEP GETTING EXPANDED AND ADDING IKEA ETC,AFTER ALEXANDERS WAS TORN DOWN.

Everyone bought homes in Paramus with the understanding that there is a plethora of malls, but that they will be closed one day a week. This strikes me as a reasonable compromise between the needs of businesses and residents and is actually beneficial to both. To invalidate the compromise now invalidates home buyers the quality of life they were expecting at the time of purchase.

I agree that it is somewhat arbitrary what sales are permitted and which are prohibited. However, it is still constitutional. I hate to keep quoting the majority opinion from the same case, but as ever, it is relevant to what you say:

"It would seem that a legislature could reasonably find that the Sunday sale of the exempted commodities was necessary either for the health of the populace or for the enhancement of the recreational atmosphere of the day -- that a family which takes a Sunday ride into the country will need gasoline for the automobile, and may find pleasant a soft drink or fresh fruit; that those who go to the beach may wish ice cream or some other item normally sold there; that some people will prefer alcoholic beverages or games of chance to add to their relaxation; that newspapers and drug products should always be available to the public.

The record is barren of any indication that this apparently reasonable basis does not exist, that the statutory distinctions are invidious, that local tradition and custom might not rationally call for this legislative treatment.... Likewise, the fact that these exemptions exist and deny some vendors and operators the day of rest and recreation contemplated by the legislature does not render the statutes violative of equal protection, since there would appear to be many valid reasons for these exemptions, as stated above, and no evidence to dispel them."

Just because it's arbitrary doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

I cannot speak for those who break the law. When I worked for CVS at Paramus Park we weren't even allowed to take inventory on a Sunday...and so we didn't. For years Two Guys in hackensack opened Sunday and just paid the fine...Perhaps the Meadowlands and the Golf Club are running under the same plan?! I couldn't tell you...but certainly, just because some people break a law consistantly...that is no opening for an argument to change the law that is cherished by the majority of citizens involved...People smoke pot all the time...is THAT the reason it should become legal?

I also feel it is EXTREMELY bad karma for the courts to go so far against the wishes of its citizens...and I have faith that smart lawmakers wouldn't make the mistake of challenging the residents on this one...there are many legal ways of fighting back and the citizens of Bergen county have made it clear, repeatedly, that Bluw Laws are what they want in their districts! To be honest, I don't see why this issue is suddenly becoming a court issue, when it has been a voter issue for the length of its existance. We will fight that...sorry...

As far as restaurant space is concerned..I live by Paramus Park and half their food court isn't food anymore. There is a bookstore where once stood Magic Pan (I LOVED that place!!!)

Mario...You make some GREAT points. But I am not so cynical...I have watched Bergen County vote to keep the Blue Laws more than once in the past 50 years..and I believe we will fight any arbitrary court decision...No one can know for sure who will win..but I know I will do my best to support the Blue Laws!

Frank...it's not that businesses are breaking the law. Businesses operate and a golf course for example collects green fees. It is considered entertainment. But in the course of business the golf course has a pro shp the same as a car wash having a gadget stand for your car accessories. So in the course of business these items are a part of the business. To allow a part of the business to operate without allowing the other part is ridiculous. It's the same like entering shop rite in Paramus some items are permissible where some are not. How does this elevate traffic. The store is open. The same number of shoppers entering shop rite remain the same yet some items are not permissible...how does this law work? Under these circumstances I don't understand how traffic is effected on Sunday and I don't understand the logic behind the law. Because the premise of the law has now become undermined. The premise of the law was religious over the years it has evolved to a secular meaning of a relief from traffic and congestion, my arguement is not an attempt to change the law but to just point out at some point with the changes and exemptions allowed the law is subject to challenge. It is just a process that occurs of time with many dated laws

Mario, et al...maybe my experience today will clarify the situation...My son gave me a gift card to The Cheesecake Factory for Christmas. My wife had a bridal shower to go to today, so Josh and I planned to go the The Cheesecake Factory for lunch. It is Saturday and all the Bergen County stores are open...it, therefore, took 45 minutes to drive the 5 miles from Paramus Park (Near where I live) to Riverside Square. Once we got there we had to squeeze through the traffic in the parking lot, where I had to drop my son off at the restaurant while I futily tried to find a parking space. I didn't need to find one, because the wait in the restaurant was over an hour...and this was at 2:30 in the afternoon. Tomorrow (Sunday) if I go back to the restaurant it will take about 6 minutes to get there and there might not even be a wait. Losing the Blue Laws would destroy this area...and for those who whine that "traffic" is not a valid excuse to keep these laws...I say they are speaking with ignorance and a judgement that is not theirs to make. Blue Laws help us to maintain some quality of life at least once a week...and those who DON'T live in this area need to mind their own businiess and get over it...there are PLENTY of other towns where they can shop on Sunday...LEAVE US ALONE!!! (Sorry...on my soap box because this was a VERY annoying experience, and hardly unusual....carry on...)

@ David...our office is an accounting office and we use to be on Madison Ave...many tax professionals keep 7 day a week hours during tax season...they are not permitted to do so in Paramus, and it wasnt that client meetings were held it was strickly for the purpose of completing returns...I understand that office space in Paramus is now empty due to the running of computer systems, which is also not permitted. National Companies would run system in Paramus for Sunday Sales throughout the country...those system were ordered shut down. Again I understand the sensitivty with regards of Sunday closing, but the laws do not make economical sense any longer, not just from the stand point of selling golf balls or Giant/Jets shirts. There are 21 counties in NJ and Bergen is the only one which has blue laws restricting sales for some and exempted the same sales for others..another point why an arguement can be made. Again every arguement which has been made is strickly for a relief from traffic, can someone list other reason besides traffic relief, and how is the general public harmed by opening. I am just curious to read the points of view. As far as incurred cost for municipal services, I am sure rateables for commercial properties are adjusted due to Sunday closures and should the law be overturned the rateables will be re assessed by any municiaplity accordingly.

Mario, thank you for your response as I appreciate your feedback.

Interesting. It occurs to me that perhaps the best solution is to re-examine the Blue Laws for specifics and make minor modifications. It may need its wings clipped, but that's no reason to chop of its head. I feel the principle remains sound, but as is often the case, the devil is in the details.

Mario, I'm a little confused with your comment. You start by saying I am not alone, then tell me others are not bothered. I KNOW that a whole lot of people are bothered in exactly the same way I am about this issue...and I would never minimilize their point of view by passing it off as "strictly emotional." I am not talking about my shopping habits...in truth, although I have lived in Paramus for 50 years, 90% of my shopping is online...primarily because of how awful it has become to go to the malls..especially on the weekends or during the holiday season. Taking away the Blue Laws would make things worse for all of us who live here...not just me...My points are NOT just very important to me...they are to most Paramusians, and a great many other Bergen County residents. And, not for nothing, but I HAVE worked retail in Paramus, and I can safely say that MANY of the companies that have stores here are happy to have the day off....far more than you can imagine. And they DO care about this issue. Like all futile arguments, it's the noisy few who are trying to make it worse for the majority. Thank you for your opinion...it is not one that I share.